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Poster: stratocaster Date: Jul 17, 2013 7:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: ?? wtf ??

He's just being superstitious...

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Poster: ColdRain108 Date: Jul 17, 2013 10:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: ?? wtf ??

especially since the SYG wasn't the defense used...but it makes for more satisfying outrage than just run-of-the-mill self defense.

Now if TM had beat GZ to death for harassing him, he could have likely used the SYG defense.

This one showed just what a mess our media is, they desperately tried to paint one picture, doctoring 911 calls, only posting pix that furthered their picture, so when the jury, that sees all the information w/o spin, comes to a conclusion that is so different than the picture painted by the media more outrage is spurred.

I wonder how many folks with extremely strong opinions on this case actually read the court transcripts? Or do they just take the word of MSNBC, FOX, CNN etc as gospel truth?


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Poster: N Hoey Date: Jul 17, 2013 10:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: ?? wtf ??

"SYG wasn't the defense used"?

Um, sure it was. In pretrial hearings, the judge allowed it as an "affirmative defense". That meant the defense was not going to attempt to say it wasn't GZ who shot TM. Without the ability to make an "affirmative" defense, that's what they would have had to do, claim it wasn't him who pulled the trigger.

SYG meant his attorneys could say, "Yes, it was our client here who shot him but he had a valid legal reason to do so".

That's why it was so difficult for the prosecution. They had to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was NOT self defense. All the conflicting testimony was enough to give the jury reasonable doubt.

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Poster: ColdRain108 Date: Jul 17, 2013 12:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: ?? wtf ??

um, no it wasn't.

""SYG meant his attorneys could say, "Yes, it was our client here who shot him but he had a valid legal reason to do so". ""

That is just a regular run-of-the-mill self defense, pretty much as it is in every state - your life is threatened you have the right to meet that threat with deadly force.

SYG is not the same as self defense - a variation possibly. SYG would have been his defense if he had backed the kid into a corner and then shot him when he tried to bust his way out with force, if he had been proven to be the physical aggressor and forced the kid to fight with him he would have used SYG, and that is a F'ed up law, but it had little to do with this case, except in the media trial. It was never employed as his defense.

In the end it was just plain and simple self defense, the same as would have been used in all 50 states.

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Poster: N Hoey Date: Jul 17, 2013 12:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: ?? wtf ??

You're simply wrong.

"According to the instructions given to the jury, Zimmerman had "no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force" if he reasonably feared for his life or great bodily harm."

That is what SYG specifically makes possible in FL and differs from the "regular run-of-the-mill self defense". Many folks in other non SYG states have been convicted of manslaughter even in self defense situations. That's why FL legislators expanded their state self defense laws to make use of deadly force totally legal.

As I already stated, in pretrial hearings, the judge sustained a motion from the defense lawyers to make use of the SYG provisions in FL law as an affirmative defense.

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Poster: ColdRain108 Date: Jul 19, 2013 11:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: ?? wtf ??

Really?

(CNN) -- George Zimmerman, set to stand trial in the 2012 shooting death of teenager Trayvon Martin, on Tuesday waived his right to a "stand your ground" pretrial immunity hearing. Zimmerman's attorneys have decided they will try this as a self-defense case.

Florida's deadly force law, also called "stand your ground", was passed in 2005. It allows people to meet "force with force" if they believe they or someone else is in danger of being seriously harmed by an assailant. Under the law, a person can use deadly force anywhere as long as he is not engaged in an unlawful activity, is being attacked in a place he has a right to be, and reasonably believes that his life and safety are in danger as a result of an overt act or perceived threat committed by someone else.

In a pretrial immunity hearing, a judge would have ruled whether Zimmerman's actions were protected under the "stand your ground" law; a ruling in favor of the defendant would have meant that no criminal or civil trial could proceed.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/30/justice/florida-zimmerman-defense

and:

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- The George Zimmerman murder trial verdict has promoted anger and confusion in North Florida. And even though it wasn't used as Zimmerman's defense, it has called into question the state's "stand your ground" law.

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/The-difference-between-stand-your-ground-and-self/HRwjL8noyEigqLYxwXZJ1A.cspx


and:

Why didn't Zimmerman's defense team use Stand Your Ground?
Zimmerman's attorneys themselves dismissed the relevance of the statute, which allows armed citizens to use deadly force with no obligation to retreat from a confrontation if they reasonably believe their lives are threatened. Perhaps Zimmerman's team shied away from using the law—also known as "shoot first"—because they knew it would be controversial and felt that they didn't need it to win on self-defense.

They may also have calculated that it would hurt their case, says Laura Cutilletta, a senior attorney at the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence and an expert on state gun laws. "We think the reason the defense did not request a shoot-first hearing or raise the law at trial is because doing so would contradict their theory of the case—that Zimmerman was being held down and beaten and had no opportunity to retreat," she says. "Shoot-first would only be applicable if he was conceding that he had an opportunity to retreat and that instead of doing so, he used deadly force."




So while SYG makes splashier headlines, it is just not the case here. Trial by media and popular vote - damn I'm glad we don't have that legal system, or the Italian one where a think tank imagines what happened and charge from there.

This post was modified by Little Sense on 2013-07-19 18:24:44

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Poster: Monte B Cowboy Date: Jul 17, 2013 11:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: ?? wtf ??

discussion on today's Democracy Now newshour program...
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/17/michelle_alexander_zimmerman_mindset_endangers_young

AMY GOODMAN: Well, for more, we’re going to Columbus, Ohio, where we’re joined by Michelle Alexander, civil rights advocate, attorney, author of the best-selling book The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness. Michelle Alexander recently wrote, "It is the Zimmerman mindset that must be found guilty — far more than the man himself. It is a mindset that views black men and boys as nothing but a threat, good for nothing, up to no good no matter who they are or what they are doing. It is the Zimmerman mindset that has birthed a penal system unprecedented in world history, and relegated millions to a permanent undercaste."

Michelle Alexander, welcome back to Democracy Now! Let’s look at the big picture here.

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Well, I think it’s clear that George Zimmerman not only killed an innocent man, but that Trayvon Martin would be alive today if he had been born white. If Trayvon had been white, it is beyond any reasonable doubt that he would not have been stalked by Zimmerman, and he would not have found himself in a fight with George Zimmerman. There would have been no fight, no trial, no verdict, no dead boy.

And as we reflect on what this moment means for our democracy and our racial present, I think it’s critically important that we not allow ourselves to get bogged down in the details of who said what when, but rather step back and consider what this Zimmerman mindset, a mindset that views a boy walking in his neighborhood carrying nothing but Skittles and iced tea as a threat, this mindset that views black men and boys as a perpetual problem to be dealt with. This mindset has infected our criminal justice system, has infected our schools, has infected our politics, in ways that have had disastrous consequences, birthing a prison system unprecedented in world history and stripping millions of basic civil, human — millions of people of basic civil and human rights once they’ve been branded criminals and felons. It’s this mindset that some of us, defined largely by race and class, are unworthy of our basic care and concern, and can be dealt with harshly, written off with impunity, that has led to the birth of the prison-industrial complex and, I think, a great deal of indifference to the plight of those who are locked up in cages in prisons, but also locked out of jobs and opportunity, and find themselves trapped in ghettoized communities.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Michelle Alexander, you’ve also suggested that if Zimmerman were actually a police officer, we would not be having this conversation. Could you explain what you mean by that and what the implications of it are?

MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Absolutely. You know, there has been an outpouring of anger and concern because of the actions of George Zimmerman, a private citizen who profiled a young boy and pursued him and tried to confront him, perhaps. But what George Zimmerman did is no different than what police officers do every day as a matter of standard operating procedure. We have tolerated this kind of police profiling and the stopping and frisking of young black and brown men. We have tolerated this kind of conduct for years and years, recognizing that it violates basic civil rights but allowing it to go on.

You know, the reality is, is that it is a crime for a private person to go up to another private person, armed with, you know, a loaded weapon, and confront them, stalk them, perhaps search all over their body to see what they may have on them. That is a crime. It’s an assault with a deadly weapon, aggravated battery or aggravated assault. But when a police officer does precisely the same thing, it’s called "stop and frisk."

And, as we know, stop-and-frisk policies are routine nationwide. In New York City alone, more than 600,000 people are stopped and frisked every year, overwhelmingly black and brown men, and nearly all are found to be innocent of any crime or infraction, and are harassed simply because they seem out of place, seem like they’re up to no good. The same kinds of stereotypes and hunches that George Zimmerman used when deciding that, you know, Trayvon Martin seemed like a threat in his neighborhood, law enforcement officers employ all the time.

I believe that Trayvon Martin’s life might well have been spared if many of us who care about racial justice had raised our voices much, much sooner and much, much more loudly about the routine stereotyping and profiling of young black men and boys. It is because we have tolerated these practices for so long that George Zimmerman felt emboldened, I believe, to act on a discriminatory mindset that night... (con't)

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/17/michelle_alexander_zimmerman_mindset_endangers_young

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Poster: tigerbolt Date: Jul 17, 2013 1:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: ?? wtf ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sL2f0PoqME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpUAFGqwiJY

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Poster: stratocaster Date: Jul 17, 2013 11:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: ?? wtf ??

blah blah blah race blah blah blah politics blah blah blah self righteous bullshit blah blah blah everybody's a legal expert...

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Poster: deadhead53 Date: Jul 17, 2013 2:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: ?? wtf ??

Thanks Strat for saying what I felt!!!!!

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Poster: craven714 Date: Jul 17, 2013 12:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Well, for more, we’re going to Columbus, Ohio

Well put strat. And
OH,(I-O), for the love of all that I S. Please don't go to Columbus, Ohio. We're all full up on racist BS here already. (we could use some more deadheads though)

Im going with the SYF _ Steal Your Face_ offensive...

and I got your penal system RIGHT HERE. caaarrrotch grab
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-25-2013/presumed-guiltocent

Attachment: SYF.jpg

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Poster: Monte B Cowboy Date: Jul 17, 2013 12:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: ?? wtf ??

George Zimmerman 9-1-1 call to the Sanford Police Department on February 26, 2012...

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department.

Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, it's Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black.

Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's here now, he was just staring.

Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…

Zimmerman: looking at all the houses.

Dispatcher: OK…

Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.

Dispatcher: OK-you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?

Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…

Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the-he's near the clubhouse right now?

Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

Dispatcher: OK.

Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.

Dispatcher: Late teens. Ok.

Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything, ok?

Zimmerman: (unclear) See if you can get an officer over here.

Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.

Zimmerman: Okay. These (expletive) they always get away. Yep. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.

Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?

Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left, uh, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. (expletive) he's running.

Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

Zimmerman: The back entrance…(expletive)(unclear)

Dispatcher: Are you following him?

Zimmerman: Yeah.

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Zimmerman: Ok.

Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?

Zimmerman... George… He ran.

here is the full transcript
http://misterbillohno.newsvine.com/_news/2013/07/10/19392176-transcript-of-george-zimmerman-911-call

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Poster: Deadhead225 Date: Jul 18, 2013 3:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: ?? wtf ??

And Rosa Parks did not stand her ground or anything.

What a moron.